Pursuing through friendly Skirmishers

It's a broad topic, but it's essentially anything pre-gun era. Warrior Heroes, Red Sand Blue Sky, Rally Round the King for a start.

Pursuing through friendly Skirmishers

Postby ianjgow » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:17 pm

Dilemma:

Several friendly LC moved around the flank (beyond 3" engagement range) behind Body of enemy Cavalry ending in engagement range of the rear of enemy Cavalry.

Friendly HC to the front of enemy Cav charged & routed the enemy Cav (with the LC behind them)

Friendly HC Pursued routing enemy Cav which would have taken them beyond their own friendly LC to the rear.

What happens here?

Does the HC move through LC (as skirmishers) despite them having already moved this turn?
"Skirmishers may be passed through by any friendly unit if the skirmishers do not move or fire while it is being passed through" p33

Does this cause the LC to Disperse?
If a unit is Retiring (& I appreciate this unit is NOT Retiring, it is Pursuing - I just include this for the sake of completeness)
"If during their move they contact friendly Skirmish units they will interpenetrate them (page, 33) causing the Skirmishers to rout".

Does HC stop within 1”
Again, NOT Retiring (see above)
"If during their move they contact a friendly non-skirmish unit, they halt 1" from contact..."

If so, does it take a Hit?
Again, NOT Retiring (see above above)
"and receive one additional hit".

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j
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Re: Pursuing through friendly Skirmishers

Postby THW » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:27 pm

ianjgow wrote:Dilemma:

Several friendly LC moved around the flank (beyond 3" engagement range) behind Body of enemy Cavalry ending in engagement range of the rear of enemy Cavalry.

Friendly HC to the front of enemy Cav charged & routed the enemy Cav (with the LC behind them) Okay, got it so far.

Friendly HC Pursued routing enemy Cav which would have taken them beyond their own friendly LC to the rear.

What happens here?

Does the HC move through LC (as skirmishers) despite them having already moved this turn? As the two cavalry units are in separate bodies so did not move at the same time, they are not considered to be moving when the HC contacts them, so pass through.



"Skirmishers may be passed through by any friendly unit if the skirmishers do not move or fire while it is being passed through" p33



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j
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Re: Pursuing through friendly Skirmishers

Postby ianjgow » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:15 pm

That’s what I wanted it to be. However, it was pointed out to me that the Interpentration rules p33 say
“Skirmishers may be passed through by any friendly unit if the skirmishers do not move or fire while it is being passed through”.

I appreciate your distinction that 2 bodies moving seperately move at different times within the turn. Does that mean I could shoot with a front line Body of Skirmishers & then move a Body of Melee units behind them, through the Skirmishers in the same move?

In any case, the above dilemma was caused by a single Body, comprising Skirmish & Melee Cavalry & using a single Activation Point, splitting up to send the faster Skirmishers around the flank to the rear as described & the Melee Cavalry (of the same Body) then charging in, Routing the enemy & Pursuing into/through their own Skirmishers.
Can these separate actions by a single Body be described as not moving at the same time?
Or have I got the whole thing wrong?
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Re: Pursuing through friendly Skirmishers

Postby THW » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:01 am

ianjgow wrote:That’s what I wanted it to be. However, it was pointed out to me that the Interpentration rules p33 say
“Skirmishers may be passed through by any friendly unit if the skirmishers do not move or fire while it is being passed through”.

I appreciate your distinction that 2 bodies moving seperately move at different times within the turn. Does that mean I could shoot with a front line Body of Skirmishers & then move a Body of Melee units behind them, through the Skirmishers in the same move? You could.

In any case, the above dilemma was caused by a single Body, comprising Skirmish & Melee Cavalry & using a single Activation Point, splitting up to send the faster Skirmishers around the flank to the rear as described & the Melee Cavalry (of the same Body) then charging in, Routing the enemy & Pursuing into/through their own Skirmishers.
Can these separate actions by a single Body be described as not moving at the same time?
Or have I got the whole thing wrong?
Here's what I would do and the rules are written to accommodate them. Decidce how you want to interpret the situation and tell all players of the change before any game. This works well, the only time it doesn't is when someone springs it on anothr player during the game. Give it a try.
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Re: Pursuing through friendly Skirmishers

Postby ianjgow » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:17 pm

I understand that RRtK can be used as a toolkit & can accommodate changes & House Rules etc.
If I was playing solo, it would be easier for me to do just that, although I always prefer to understand the rule writer's intent with a rule & the reasoning behind it before I decide that I know better :)

So, with that in mind, the following will probably clear up a lot of things & enable me to make choices consistent with the intent of the Rules. Sorry if I am not making sense or seem to be oblivious to your answers.
I hope this will help me to understand.

1. Was it your intention that a single Activation Point is sufficient to allow a Body, consisting of multiple units, to perform different operations e.g. some wheeling, some standing, some charging?

2. As you have clearly stated that 2 seperate Bodies move seperately at different times within the turn so do not fall foul of the p33 "can't move through them if they are shooting at the same time" bullet point as they move at different times, the only way I can see that happening is if a single Body wanted to, say, shoot with their Skirmishers then have the Melee troops of the same Body move through them, right?

In which case, does this mean all I have to do is use 2 Activation Points - one to get the Skirmishers as a Body to shoot, then another to activate the Melee troops as a seperate Body to move through them?


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Re: Pursuing through friendly Skirmishers

Postby THW » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:19 am

ianjgow wrote:I understand that RRtK can be used as a toolkit & can accommodate changes & House Rules etc.
If I was playing solo, it would be easier for me to do just that, although I always prefer to understand the rule writer's intent with a rule & the reasoning behind it before I decide that I know better :)

So, with that in mind, the following will probably clear up a lot of things & enable me to make choices consistent with the intent of the Rules. Sorry if I am not making sense or seem to be oblivious to your answers.
I hope this will help me to understand. Here goes.

1. Was it your intention that a single Activation Point is sufficient to allow a Body, consisting of multiple units, to perform different operations e.g. some wheeling, some standing, some charging? The activation point is used only to get the body to start moving regardless of its size. Once moving they continue to do so until forced to stop to fire or from melee. The body can be as small as one unit and still requires one AP to get it to move again.

2. As you have clearly stated that 2 seperate Bodies move seperately at different times within the turn so do not fall foul of the p33 "can't move through them if they are shooting at the same time" bullet point as they move at different times, the only way I can see that happening is if a single Body wanted to, say, shoot with their Skirmishers then have the Melee troops of the same Body move through them, right? Right. That rule only applies to units in the same body that act together.

In which case, does this mean all I have to do is use 2 Activation Points - one to get the Skirmishers as a Body to shoot, then another to activate the Melee troops as a seperate Body to move through them? No, you don't use activation points to have the body do things. They are only used to get them to start moving. Subsequent turns they continue to move until forced to stop. It the two units are in the same body then the rule applies. Shooting only happens when you are stopped. if you have skirmishers in the front rank and melee in contact behind them, when the skirmishers stop to shoot the melee units stop as well. The way you want to do it is start with the skirmishers and melee troops in the same body. Spend one activation point to get them to move. Sprint the skirmishers up into range of the enemy. Follow with the melee troops but be sure they are not in contact - forming a second body, being sure that they are to the left of the skirmishers, even a 1/4 inch, so the skirmishers act first next turn - bodies activate from right to left.

Next turn fire with the skirmishers. Then the melee body activates and moves through the skirmishers.



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